I'm extremely disturbed by a recent study that finds atheists are America's least trusted minority. According to the American Sociological Association, "American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity does not extend to those who don’t believe in a god." Not only do we atheists not share religious folks' "vision of American society" -- we're also "the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry." According to Penny Edgell, the study’s lead researcher, “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”
The point of this post isn't to promote or defend atheism. I try not to be an evangelical atheist. I don't want you shoving your religion in my face, and I try to return the favor by not shoving my lack thereof in yours.
No, I'm writing today about tolerance.
I don't think of myself as being part of a distrusted, discriminated-against minority (even though my personal belief system is illegal in some states) because you can't identify me as an atheist just by looking at me. (Unless you spot me in my car and notice the Darwin fish.) I don't encounter religious discrimination on a daily basis. Or ever, really. I have many friends and family members who share my atheism. And many who don't. And that's how it should be. I don't care what my friends' beliefs are. Of course, if they share mine, I'm happy to discuss that fact with them. And if they don't, I love to have friendly conversations about our differing world views. Doesn't that make us all better people? Shouldn't we be trying to open ourselves up to other viewpoints?
And those of you who know me, either in the real world or through visiting my blog now and then: Do I strike you as a self-interested individual who isn't interested in the common good? Do you believe that I don't love my children, my family? Or America? Because if I've given that impression, I need to seriously reexamine my ability to communicate.
This is one idea about atheism and atheists that really burns me -- that, because we don't believe in a moral authority figure, we have no morals. Nothing could be further from the truth, and nothing is more insulting to an atheist. Atheists are just like every other group of people: Most of us are great people who love our families. Some of us are not. Lots of us are intelligent, thoughtful, caring, upstanding members of society. Some of us are not. I challenge you to name a group of humans for whom these statements aren't true.
I know that most (all?) of my readers aren't atheist-haters. So maybe I'm preaching to the choir, so to speak. But this has been on my mind lately, and I wanted to share my thoughts with all of you. I'm curious to hear what you think about the topic. Please comment and let me know.
You can't really pin down atheists as a unified group, because we're anything but. However, here's some suggested reading for those who want to read a bit more about atheism:
Wikipedia's Atheism entry.
Sam Harris's excellent 10 Myths -- and 10 Truths -- About Atheism in the LA Times. Be sure to read number 10, which is perhaps the most damaging and disturbing myth about atheism.
I really love Penn Jillette's contribution to NPR's This I Believe series, found here. (I recommend listening rather than reading -- Penn is a compelling speaker.)
And, just for fun, check out this interesting list of celebrity nonbelievers.
17 comments:
I really don't know how anyone could come to that kind of conclusion. It makes no sense to me at all.
You have opened a door that I, for one, cannot refuse to enter!
My motives in responding to your most recent post dealing with some of your thoughts on atheism are not to defend any form of hatred…rather that of love! You may be assured that as I know my heart there is no feeling of distrust for you or for that matter anyone holding your philosophical view of life.
Concern…yes…
Perplexity…plenty…
But never a question as to your worth as a person whose lifestyle is most assuredly guided by mores designed to promote the “common good” of all mankind!
As a Christian who seeks and often fails to follow the teaching and example of Jesus Christ, I have a deep-seated concern for your eternal well being! My worries for you are based upon the warnings of the Holy Bible, God’s Word. It speaks directly to the prospects for individuals who dismiss God as being non-existent with no claims upon the lives of the men and women who were/are created in His image. People for whom He has unconditional love!
My perplexity stems from a sincere question that I find myself asking all atheists who come across my path. How is it possible for anyone; in light of all the complexities of creation observable around us, with even a modicum of intellectual honesty to believe there is no God?
Well there it is. Like you, I am not interested in pushing my belief system on someone who has no interest. On the other hand, there is something right about having enough courage in one’s convictions to be willing and open to dialogue on a subject that is at the very foundation of the great queries of life.
Take it further or drop it the ball is in your court. Regardless please know that I love you, respect you and think you are one very fine lady.
Gramps
It always boggles my mind that those that preach--judge not lest ye be judged and love thy neighbor --are the first one's stepping up to the plate in judgement and hate. How sad.
Threats of Hell don't work on athiests or Episcapalians because we don't believe in Hell.
I'm not afraid of something that doesn't exist, and it has fear has never informed my belief in Jesus.
I was never able to transfer my view of Christianity to my children and for that I'm sorry . . . not ashamed . . . they're great kids, but sorry.
I don't fear for their imortal souls because Heaven's not a place you go by holding your mouth just right and following one faith or another. All faiths are valid and should be respected, nor should any member of any faith assume he/she knows God's will about the eternal souls of members of other faith. God is not as narrow as we are, and Buddists and Mouslims don't go to Hell because they do not accept our faith. Why should they? We must look as wrong-headed to them as they do to us.
It is only by following the teaching of Jesus, and I'm often lax at that myself, or the teachings of Buddua or Mohamid, that we can make this world a better place.
We seccumb the chauvanism that our faith is the only true faith, we get plains flying into buildings and people being lynched because they want to vote and their skin is not the right color.
I'm very proud of my daughter and glad that she has the intelligence to seek her own truth. She will not go to hell for it. There is no Hell.
By choosing to believe in a singular "God," you choose to define all other religious figure heads as non-existent. That's the nature of the term "singular." This is why religious conflicts have existed in the past, continue to exist, and will always exist. As nice as the majority of people are to tolerate another individual's belief system, there are always a select few who will define extremism and force the topic to be politically and religiously present.
The idea that we can repeat something so often that we start to believe it without question is not new. How many years did people think the world was flat until Ptolemy hypothisized a sphere? And that in multiple areas of the world this can happen simultaneously, giving rise to multiple belief systems, isn't that surprising. It hasn't been until very recently that moral and ethical converstations can be had in near real time via the web.
As a matter of fact, it would be truly interesting to see what would come of a world of people who snapped into existence already having our instant intercontinental sharing of dialgue. Would they give birth to one "God?" Many? What circumstances would need to occur to give rise to two competing religions in that scenario?
But no, atheists are not some collective looking to tear down other belief systems. We are not looking for reassurance in our existence. We just live each day looking at each new fact of life with wonder and enjoy our friends and family while we exist for this cosmic millisecond.
Click reminds me of this quote:
"I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen L. Roberts
Hey, Grandpa Paul -- thanks for your thoughtful reply.
You mention intellectual honesty. That is an idea that is very important to me, for sure, and you won't be surprised that you and I have opposite views of what it means to be intellectually honest when it comes to religion and creation.
I find it the height of intellectual dishonesty to say that God created everything, period, no further explanation needed. First and foremost, there's no credible evidence for such an assertion. Next, it takes away from us any need to learn more about the world around us, to challenge our current level of understanding and try to comprehend the workings of the cosmos to the best of our ability. And finally, rather than answering questions of creation, supposing an omnipotent creator actually makes the question far more complicated. The cosmos as we know it is incredibly intricate and complex, a thing of beauty and wonderment almost beyond human comprehension. A supposed creator would have to be infinitely more complex than our cosmos in order to wave his or her hand and have it all just appear. So where did that creator come from? Was he or she the product of a Darwinian-style natural selection process in some other universe? Or did he or she just appear whole and complete, divine and benevolent (mostly) and all-powerful? Forgive me if I find both of those ideas hard to swallow, considering there's no evidence for either of them. Do we know how the cosmos began or where it all came from? No. And I'd rather give an honest "no" than a dishonest deus ex machina "yes" any day.
You view the Bible as the inspired Holy Word of God. I view it as a mishmash of documents of uncertain origin, translated and edited countless times throughout the centuries by scholars and theologians with varying agendas. You might see it as evidence of God and Jesus and Heaven. I do not.
Of course, you're not going to convert me and I'm not going to convert you, especially via blog comments, but I do think it's amazing and wonderful that we're able to have this conversation freely and openly. That's something I love about our society and our family. So I guess discrimination against us atheists isn't as extreme as all that, for now.
At 60 I am still thinking and definding my belief systems. I believe there is something after life, but we have not evolved enought to understand. As a critical care nurse for over 25 years I have seen all types of people and how they respond to the worst episodes of their life, Unfortunately for many fundermentalists it is not well,they expect to cure their loved ones, They seem to be the afraid of death. These are the people who think you are a threat. Accutely I think they are. They are after power... to control you mind , your money , your private life, the knowledge that is aviable to you and your childern, they need to throw out sceintific method. if it does't fit into their belief system it a threat. They are lazy and need someone to do their thinking for them. An evolutionary dead end because their are not expanding their minds or where adaptive abilities.
There are unexplored territories out there waiting.
What does not kill you makes you strong
Kelly, this is a mighty big motzah ball you have left here. I do not consider myself to be particularly smart and I definitely have limited knowledge in the area of science. For my it is more of a philosophical question. There has to be something that has always been. That something is either material or immaterial. It either has/had life or it didn't. It either had complexity and intelligence or it didn't. I find it more reasonable that the first cause of all things was living, intelligent and deliberate rather than dead, random and inanimate. Spontaneous generation is a pretty large leap of faith that the materialist is forced to make. Does that mean that theists don't have some tough questions to answer? No way. But I do not agree with your statement that there is no credible evidence for the assertion of a creator. The fact is we all come into these arguments with our own baggage and biases and we have all been influenced by the thinking and actions of others. That being the case it becomes possible and in fact it becomes inevitable that two intelligent and educated people can look at the exact same data and come to wildly different conclusions. Those who believe in the existence of God do not necessarily do so because they have failed to exam the evidence.
That being said I thought it was a great post. I liked your reference to "evangelical atheists". I have examined some websites and was amused to see how closely they resembled some very strict fundamentalist Christian sites in both tone a fervor. I don;t have the answers but I am still looking. as they said on X Files ( a show I never watched even once ) the truth is out there.
I think it's awesome, first of all, that you have a family that likes to discuss these things. I've been as lucky for the most part as well, and it is RARE. Most people just get cranky and offended and start hollering. No hollering here! Good family!
I think people have a really distorted view of what atheism (or agnosticism) means. There is an assumption that you have to "be something" and the specific choice to "be nothing" strikes many as immature and needlessly rebellious. I really like the Roberts quote -- I am always trying to explain to my [very loving, very well-meaning] family that it just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME, and that I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. I just can't make my faith do that. I just don't think it's honest. And it's absurd to assume that one would have no moral compass without a ready willingness to accept Christ (or whoever.) Tolerance is a foundation of human coexistance. I can't in good conscience say "I am right and you, and you, and all you too, are wrong." That just doesn't make sense. And when you follow it to it's conclusion, like Click pointed out, it is actually kind of hurtful in some cases.
I remain open to all sorts of surprises, but for now find it impossible and just ridiculous to accept something so contrary to reason. If God's real, and God's nice, I'm confident that He'll understand. I don't respond well to fear tactics either.
Book recommendation, Brainy Mama: Jennifer Michael Hecht's DOUBT. I know you've read a lot of similar things, but I promise that this one will actually entertain while it informs. Very enjoyable reading.
LONGEST COMMENT EVER, WHOA
ps. After thinking about my comment for yet another 5 minutes, I want to add this: I am also slightly disturbed by the study. I think the mingling of politics and religion -- in almost ALL modern societies, and not one more than another -- is where things get truly scary. Because it should be about personal beliefs (or personal choices) and it should remain something that's discussed in kitchens and family rooms and coffeeshops and blogs. It should not be used as a tool to shape society. I fear for any society that puts too much emphasis on religion. History proves that this can only end in a very confusing, very limiting situation.
God as "singular" doesn't exclude any belief system. It is only the limitation of our culture that causes us to see our consciiousness as separate from everyone else. God is infinate and well beyond our scale of comprehension.
As a believer in the Holy Trinity, I accept God as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Three different faces of one God.
It's no stretch for me to expand that definition and include other Gods and other belief systems as other aspects of the same omnipotent being; no more and no less valid than my own.
Jimmy Carter, in his wonderful book that I forgot to bring to Chicago, states it never bothered him that the Bible claimed the world was created in 7 days, or that it was flat and had 4 corners. The Bible wasn't written by geologists, but just because thier views aren't scientifically accurate doesn't mean that they are completely false.
Scientists now are reacting against centuries of Machiavellian rule, the Church (not God) squelched scientific exploration in effort to maintain power and ignorance.
Don't confuse what a bunch of greedy men did with what God did.
Science only helps us understand how much more miraculous the world around us is.
Wow -- now this is an issue you're all willing to talk about! Thanks to everyone for your well-crafted and thought-provoking comments. Everyone certainly has insightful additions to the conversation, which is just what I hoped for! The good news is that I'm feeling fairly certain my family and friends (both those I've met and those I haven't) aren't discriminating against me. Phew!
What Dreams knows that threats of hell don't touch me (or her or any other atheists or Episcopalians), which I view to be a positive thing. I want to believe what's true because it's true, not because I'm too scared not to believe it.
Aunt Bobby raises a good point -- we all learn new things and pick up new ideas throughout our lives (at least, I hope we do!), and it seems only right and good that we refine and adjust our world view accordingly as we go along.
Finished Last speaks the truth that we can all look at the same set of data and draw different conclusions -- and that's a good thing. We're not all automatons, and our differences and uniqueness are what make life and humanity and the cosmos so amazing and precious.
And Chess la Ress, you so hit the nail right on the head. If there is a god who is nice and good, s/he will understand and not mind that I never bought into that whole religion thing. (And if s/he does mind and holds it against me, I think s/he is kind of a dick, the sort of deity I'd be not much interested in worshiping anyway.) I just put Doubt on my Amazon.com wish list. Who wants to buy me a Valentine's Day present?
Thanks to everyone for putting so much thought into your comments! You've carried out a fascinating and eye-opening (and civil!) conversation today, and I am honored to have hosted it.
Hi,
Kelly...please open your E-mail!
Gramps
Am I to late to comment?
I am so proud of my children and most of all, I am glad that I raised them to think freely about all the possibilities of life, unshackled by the fear of any god in particular. It has taken me most of my life to shake off those fears and I credit my daughter for a measure of that courage. Some say "how can there not be God", I ask why must we explain the wonders we don't understand by creating gods to justify it all? Remember Galileo.
Remember who asked a Christian "Who was that Greek Guy who got excommunicated?"
I was never raised to fear God, and don't see how anyone who was could believe in God.
I was raised to love God and to know that God loves me.
As to why all these terrible things happen when God is supposed to be good? . . . Read Voltaire. He's not Greek either.
Just a reminder--this post is supposed to be about religious intolerance. I know we've strayed a bit from that, but let's at least try to keep it in mind. If you have something off-topic to say, or if you have something religiously intolerant to say, take it somewhere else. Or, better yet, don't say it at all.
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